"Four Color" settings are becoming a thing of the past (or cater explicitly to younger readers) and those "dubious" reasons for low body counts aren't really dubious in context (a reality in which radiation grants super powers rather than cancer or a grisly death) so that sword cuts both ways. If the campaign is not 4 color, the Black Widow might still survive if she has a metric buttload of Willpower on her (unless the rules are tweaked to make a gritty game full-on grimdark), further she might not even register as a target to something that she literally cannot affect in any significant way, If she didn't trigger the transformation or the Hulk wasn't being compelled to attack her with hoodoo he may just ignore her and everything else that doesn't hit like a freight train. Rules and narrative lawyering aside that doesn't really have anything to do with the choice of Hard Dice over a Vicious/Deadly extra, additional Attacks qualities, booster Mass, Full Power Only Flaws and so on.
In general Hard dice are chosen for a power to reliably produce the same effect at optimum quality (hence the set of 10s and their prevalence in defensive and "mental" effects, 10s trump all other numbers except more 10s, the option is direct comparison so a pair of 10s would fail to dodge a pair of 5s, you got your head out of the way of an attack to your arm). Numerous recommendations are made to make them more flexible or functional for different kinds of games (like assigning a number other than 10 that they achieve without fail, I'm a fan of 9 so attacks are center mass every time and still hard to dodge) and there's also Expert or Master Dice.
I don't think they don't make sense for the Hulk because he generally doesn't take head shots or attack vitals, he hits things so hard they fall to pieces, in ORE that's best represented by extra attacks qualities and maybe armor piercing, so if he clips an Arm with a pair of 5s it's coming off or being driven into the torso so violently it comes out somewhere else.
For a "clumsy TK" that is mostly brute force, a combination of high-capacity Mass and Full power only are a better fit (my opinion) because such a power should not really reliably head shot or demolish critical areas (again my opinion). Explosive might even be a better fit since the brute force is so great damage is guaranteed but it's scattered because the power lacks accuracy.
Not that it's particularly relevant to this exchange but I'm not the OP so I didn't ask for any input.
On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Marco Subias <arkhamalum@gmail.com> wrote:
Hulk in the comics is generally in a four-color setting in which he somehow seldom if ever kills anyone with a punch. In a four-color setting authors may come up with dubious reasons for this fact. If a campaign is not four-color and more Avengers movie or Ultimates comic in style, the Hulk is truly terrifying and if the Hulk lands a solid punch on the Black Widow, she'd die. How may people did Hulk kill in The Ultimates?Hotjets
Wild Talents, unless tweaked, lends itself to a gritty style in which major injuries or death are much more likely. You can see this by looking at the sources that most inspired WT, or reading campaign books like Progenitor. Obviously, one can do anything with the rules that one's fellow players will go along with. You did write to ask for observations about the powers that you constructed though.
--On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Matt <moeheid@gmail.com> wrote:
It's a matter of narrative preference for the power in question: HD in Coordination or firearms would lead to a character that attacked with unerring precision, unable to strike any but the most vital area no matter what he was wielding, but that depends on what he's wielding and his intent. Does a character with hd in Rifles always hit his mark dead center, or consistently shoot the spot on the frame that causes the whole target to fall to pieces with 1 bullet?Does a super strong character with body 10d that throws a truck with 10hd of coordination still try and put it through an eyesocket or brainpan? Wouldn't he instead throw center mass for the best chance of doing catastrophic damage to the whole body? Wouldn't that be the best possible result? Because the rest of the rules indicate that rolling a height 10 gives you the best result, so 10 is a head shot or oddly defined vital area (for aliens and robots or machines etc).My point is, for a power like TK, full power only with hi capacity mass means the character can't pick up a penny, they pickup a 2 yard wide area which the penny currently occupies and hurl the whole mess at top speed, center mass. Then again, even that makes little sense given the Clumsy description which I would think would be inaccurate, maybe just Brute Telekinesis would be better...I respect Greg, obviously, but I disagree with the Hulk strength parallel. This is more because the hulk rarely destroys people inadvertently and after world war hulk it was established he makes elaborate calculations to prevent injuries even in his nearly unconscious rage states (you could assume an infinite points build which gives him 20 of every kind of dice to use as needed but I prefer more conservative builds). Greg's example as the architect is valid, but disagrees with the rules presented in the WT2EE which indicate 10 is a headshot on humanoid targets and hd cant hit anything but 10. But this is a selling point of the system, it can be interpreted to suit the needs of the player and the source material.
-Matt ConlonHotjetsWhere are you getting this "obvious exceptional results every time" quote?I remember HD in Body/Brawling as being described by Greg on the Arc Dream web site like a more realistic version of the Hulk. Giant, enraged fists swinging so hard that they can not do merely moderate, peripheral damage to limbs, FREX, but always hitting like a cannonball with what are essentially vital shots because they are so overwhelming. Shooting a penny with HD TK makes sense because full speed is pretty uncontrollable and imprecise. Guiding it through a large, old-school keyhole would make little sense. Firing through the center of the door seems more in the spirit of things with HD only.
--On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Matt <moeheid@gmail.com> wrote:
Not to me because max speed and max range are different for me. Example: hard dice as restrictive as you're indicating (I think) would mean 10hd in mind control would only affect targets 2 miles away.Hd are supposed to be "obvious exceptional results every time" but if there's multiple capacities more finesse is possible, by adding the full power flaw it just means the character has to lift the max amount of weight.
-Matt ConlonInflexibility and predictability does not necessarily say clumsiness - at least not to me. I think someone with, for instance, hard dice in a TK power should be able to take a penny and shoot it away from them with maximum possible force and speed, and even be deadly accurate with it - what they can't do is move it slower than maximum speed or change that precise trajectory in flight or otherwise finesse it. To me, at least, hard dice allow *precision*, but not *finesse*.That being said, although I can think of ways Clumsy would restrict TK more than just Hard Dice would, I'm not sure those restrictions are actually enough to warrant a Flaw, so...As for whether or not you can pick up a single object - for me, I'd probably let the player define it. If they want to pick up only single objects, then they can do that with their hard dice - but they don't have the capacity to shove multiple things at once. If they do want to be able to do a force gesture and shove a collection of stuff at once, then they have no single object targetting capability. In short, basically, I'd let someone buy hard dice in a Useful(Move a single object) power, or a Useful(Move stuff) power, but not one useful that does both if we're using hard dice...that make sense?As for why hard dice - because the player has an overwhelming preference for them, I believe because they don't like the unpredictability of rolling. And hard dice in a power that also has a Defends with Duration is just so much more useful.Matt, I thought of Full Power Only, but that Flaw seems very redundant when dealing with Hard Dice, eh?--On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Marco Subias <arkhamalum@gmail.com> wrote:
HD are inflexible and there is no controlling the result."The downside of Hard Dice is that while they're extremely powerful and effective, they're inflexible. A heat ray using Hard Dice is always as deadly as possible; a super-piloting Skill using Hard Dice always flies as straight and fast as possible. There's no faking it with Hard Dice, no controlling the result. If you attack with a power or Stat that has a significant number of Hard Dice, you will kill people."Wild Talents, EE, page 19
"Hard Dice: Dice that are never rolled, but are always set to 10. They represent a predictable, inflexible, powerful effect; in combat, powers with Hard Dice kill people fast. Found only in superhuman powers."
Wild Talents, EE, page 31I don't see why you went with HD in TK to begin with. 4d makes more sense, as does 3d + 1wd. Both other options are cheaper too.
HotjetsOn Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Wade Lahoda <wade.lahoda@gmail.com> wrote:
Is 4HD necessarily clumsy though? I mean, 4x10 is also precise. If someone wanted to use 4HD to fling a small object through a keyhole sized opening, I think that'd be fair? They'd have to do it will full speed and power, but that doesn't *necessarily* mean clumsy, right?After all, hard dice are also the dice of infinite headshots...--On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Marco Subias <arkhamalum@gmail.com> wrote:
4hd in TK is clumsy enough without any special flaw. 4hd in TK equals clumsy, uncontrollable TK that picks up the maximum weight and moves it the maximum speed. In essence, you always pick up the targeted object - and maybe everything nearby it up to your 400 pound limit - and move it at full speed. You can't just pick up a person and make them hover. You grab and toss them every time.Hotjets
--On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Wade Lahoda <wade.lahoda@gmail.com> wrote:
If anyone spots an issues or has suggestions for the "Burning Man/Incinerator" powerset above, feel free to share. In the meantime, here's the next one on the block:Mind Control (18 per die) - She wanted an area effect, but not much range. I've told her if she does a whole area, she can only give one command at a time (so she can't give a theatre with 500 people in it 500 different commands), but she's got spray in there for if she needs to go after multiple different people at once with commands.
Useful (Control Minds), Range; Duration +2, Radius (20 Yards) +4, Spray +1, Reduced Capacities -1, Controlled Effect +1
Useful (Telepathy), Range; Radius (20 Yards) +4, Duration +2, Spray +1, Subtle +1, Reduced Capacities -1
3d + 3w (270 points) +1 Spray Die
Perceive Minds (2) - She wanted to be able to sense people to target them and such even without her mundane senses, so here we go.
Useful (Detect Minds).. Capacities: Range.
6d (12 Points)
Clumsy TK(13) - Lastly, she also wanted TK, but wanted it a lot more clumsy raw force than the finesse she's capable with for her Mind Control. And the Defends is less of a block individual attacks, but more just putting up a repulsion field that stops dangerous incoming stuff with repelling force.
Attacks Extras and Flaws: Power Capacity(Mass) +2. Capacities: Range, Mass.
Defends Extras and Flaws: Duration +2, Interference +3, If/Then(Only usable on matter) -1. Capacities: Self.
Useful Extras and Flaws: Power Capacity(Mass) +2, If/Then(Only for Clumsy Effects). Capacities: Range, Mass.
4HD (104 Points)
386 in Powers
+4 Base Will
+2 Hyperstability
----
400 Points
Seems pretty straightforward, I think?--On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 1:53 AM, Wade Lahoda <wade.lahoda@gmail.com> wrote:
Meant "fairly serious" as in "Serious in tone" - definitely not something to take out muggers with. Here's what his full build comes to now.Burning Man (10/die) - The flame aura power I've been trying to build here.
Qualities: A
Attacks (Flame Aura) Extras and Flaws: Horrifying -1, Touch Only -2, Duration +2, Engulf +2, Penetration +1, Radius +2, Speeding Bullet +2, Controlled Effect +1, Burn +2, Obvious -1
4 HD = 80 Points
Regeneration (8/die) - Fairly strong regeneration. The If/Then is basically to represent that while he's burning, his regen is taken up just keeping him from burning up.
Qualities: U
Useful (Heal Wounds) Extras and Flaws: Engulf +2, Permanent +4, Self Only –3, If/Then (When not using Burning Man) -1. Capacities: Self.
Useful (Cure diseases and toxins) Extras and Flaws: Permanent +4, Self Only –3. Capacities: Self.
4 HD = 64 Points.
Incinerate (19/die) - This is his big stick tank-busting wreck havoc on battlefields kind of power. With 6 HD and 6 Penetration, he's going to completely destroy most things he targets with it, and even 10 HAR types are going to take some nasty damage. And he's got Radius in there, so when he wants to he can going from busting a tank to busting buildings.
Qualities: A.
Attacks Extras and Flaws: Burn +2, Engulf +2, Penetration +6, Radius +6, Attached (Burning Man) -1, Attacks Level +2
6 HD = 228 Points
Control Flame (4) - When he's not enveloped in flame and destroying shit, his normal "Control Flame" power is flexible but not very powerful. He can do a weak attack with it, do some tricks with existing flame and the like, but that's about it. He's mostly an "all or nothing" kind of guy.
Qualities: A U.
Attacks capacities: Range.
Useful capacities: Range.
2D + 1WD = 24 Points.
+2 Base Will
+2 Hyperendurance
----400 PointsI think that all adds up. Incinerate is clearly the most major power in his set, but it is also pretty straightforward (Harm with a bunch of nasty extras).On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 1:37 AM, Matt <moeheid@gmail.com> wrote:Self immunity is assumed, as is immunity for a small mass of personal items, typically clothes.If this is a 400pts of powers character this "fairly serious power" is kind of penny-ante. I think it's ~240 pts to turn off the sun with 2hd. I would think either a major Human Torch suite or something to do with a variety of Radiant energies.My opinion, others may differ...
-Matt ConlonAhhh, forgot Duration. Yeah, duration should definitely be in there, since it is meant to be an activate once and then it is up for the scene or whatever.It should probably have Speeding Bullet, because you shouldn't be able to easily "Attack him, and then Dodge his flame aura". People with Hypercoordination could still dodge it, but that might just amount to darting in and out to attack him faster than they can get burned or something?
And the lack of self-immunity is intentional. He very much doesn't want his character to be immune to fire - however, his other main power is regeneration. Which makes me think there is another Flaw that needs to be in there:Incineration Aura (8)Attacks Extras and Flaws: Horrifying -1, Touch Only -2, Duration +2, Engulf +2, Penetration +1, Radius +2, Speeding Bullet +24 Hard dice: 64 PointsThis is meant to be a fairly serious power he's pretty reluctant to use, as opposed to more of a Fantastic 4 type of thing - he activates it, asphalt starts melting under his feet, he starts burning (and his regeneration kicks in - though he will need some extra wound boxes to make sure his power doesn't kill him before he regenerates...it might just be easier to add in self-immunity to this power, and place an If/Then on his regen that he can't use it while his aura is up), and all in all stuff goes to hell.How's that look?I guess one of the main things I'm wondering about is if it is fair game to use Radius as "Anyone who comes within a couple feet of me/touches me" instead of a full 10 yards? (And let the player decide "I'm gonna use the full 10 yards now...let's wreck shit")? The main thing I see is usually Duration just by itself means the attach repeatedly goes off against one target, whereas here I want it to auto-hit everyone who touches him or comes close.(Also: Man, 400 points is a lot of juice...)--On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Shane Ivey <shane.ivey@gmail.com> wrote:<<And once he activates it, it just keeps on doing 4 Shock and 4 Killing to every hit location of everything nearby?>>
Wouldn't he need to declare and activate it each round?--On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Wade Lahoda <wade.lahoda@gmail.com> wrote:
--I figure I'd do a separate thread, since this is potentially less interesting to the group than the quartet of toddlers with Tier 4 powers. ;) I'm gonna need some help for some of the power mechanics for some more mundane stuff too...First up - damage auras/offensive armor. In this case it is flames. We're not necessarily looking for a radius effect here (though the player wants to be able to flare it to do damage in a radius, but that's probably just), but instead more of a "If you touch/attack me, you automatically get hurt". Here's my first attemptWreathed in Fire (6)Attacks Extras and Flaws: Touch Only -2, Engulf +2, Penetration +1, Radius +24 Hard dice: 48 PointsBecause he didn't take it with full power only or the like, I imagine that means he can dial in the Radius if he wants? Like have it be 1 yard radius one round, and then spend an action to make it go out to the full radius another? And once he activates it, it just keeps on doing 4 Shock and 4 Killing to every hit location of everything nearby? I didn't give it Burn, because I figure once you leave the area of affect it probably doesn't keep hurting you - let's be honest, fire this intense (we're looking at slagging steel plate type heat) is going to rapidly burn off anything likely to keep burning for any length of time, and it isn't like it coats you in napalm.Does this look about right?--
"It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."
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