Re: [ORE] [Wild Talents] How should I deal with horribly cheap invulnerability?

I'm using WT EE here.

The description of Invulnerability on page 150 includes Immunity with VE. It mentions nothing about a WP cost. Neither does the description of Immunity with VE on page 149. I don't know if some other version of the rules changed this.   

"Also, that defense roll can be designated as a Sense/Perception roll by the character that uses nullify."

I don't see that anywhere in WT EE.

I don't see where Defends with VE comes int this. I don't see it under Heavy Armor or Invulnerability. I don't recall any character write-ups in Progenitor or elsewhere that use it. Do you have examples?    

Hotjets

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Matt <moeheid@gmail.com> wrote:

Immunities and Invuln aren't the same thing. Also VE is not "everything all the time" it's "whatever I need it to be after I spend the willpower as described in VE to create the new effect."

Also, that defense roll can be designated as a Sense/Perception roll by the character that uses nullify.

In short, VE defends is conceptually defense against "things that kill me directly" while VE immunities are "things that make me have a bad day, possibly killing me but generally not with damage."

That's one GM's interpretation, my interpretation is the reason I don't think these kinds of defenses are a problem mechanically. But that's me. 

Also, the developers have stated over and over, min maxing is expected to a point. If you're the GM, ultimately you have to make the call on whether this is a toke over the line. 

Good luck. 

-Matt Conlon

On Feb 26, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Marco Subias <arkhamalum@gmail.com> wrote:

Nullify is resisted with "a defense roll as if you were attacking." The defensive aspect of Invulnerability counts. 9hd with Interference makes you totally immune to Nullify.

VE immunity and immunities in general is something I'd like to see better-explained in a new edition of WT. It certainly does work v. non-attack powers. See the write-ups of characters in Progenitor, FREX. There are NPC who are immune to being found with mind scans and scrying powers. VE immunity keeps you from harm from the vacuum of space or starvation - neither of these are attacks.

As for your example regarding gravity and intertia - comic book logic trumps it.          

Hotjets

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Matt <moeheid@gmail.com> wrote:

Resolution speed in this case is irrelevant. As a permanent power it's already in effect. Any nullify type power will cut through it.  it makes them invulnerable to damage, not "any effect.  Variable effect Invuln has limits or you get "I make myself invulnerable to gravity and inertia and fly away" (at immense speed as the earth's rotation speeds foes away). 

-Matt Conlon

On Feb 26, 2014, at 1:10 PM, John Poole <longspeak.teller@gmail.com> wrote:

Daniel,

I understand that, I'm just not sure how the two sets interact if both have interference. If I infer correctly from what you say,

Effects with Interference all "go off" simultaneously, applying only the width of the roll. Then, any set which survives this with at least a pair will get to add it extras and extra levels?

In this case, if my attack gets three width and your defense gets two width, the attack fails because each lost its base set. Yes? But if my attack gets four width, it kills your defense with a pair left over?

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Daniel Kane <daniel.m.kane@gmail.com> wrote:

Anything that passively (or persistently) causes a -1d penalty to the defense will ruin the 2x10 set before the +levels are applied.

~Daniel

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:49 AM, John Poole <longspeak.teller@gmail.com> wrote:

Okay, the book maybe needs a little clarification, but I see it now. Yes. Penetration only seems to affect HAR or LAR which has the Armored Defense Flaw. That seems a little wonky to me and reduces the usefulness of penetration, but that's a separate argument.

But Interference... I never thought to put that on an attack. What happens if both an attack and a defense have Interference?

If they resolve simultaneously, the attack loses 10 gobble dice no matter what, right?

But if they resolve in order of width... an attack with interference will kill the 2hd version of the power pretty easily in many cases, won't it?

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Marco Subias <arkhamalum@gmail.com> wrote:

Penetration only works if the target has the Armored Defense (I believe that is what it's called) flaw. 

An attack with Interference would work though.

Hotjets

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014, John Poole <longspeak.teller@gmail.com> wrote:

I want to revisit this question. A player and I were looking it over, and I am curious, from a purely mechanical standpoint, if there's any reason not to purchase a power this way.

If I compare...

Defends (HAR) Extras and Flaws: Interference +3, Native +1 Permanent +4. 10/die.
--200 points for 10 hard dice, providing 10 gobble dice.

to

Defends (HAR) Extras and Flaws: Defends Levels +8, Interference +3, Native +1 Permanent +4. 18/die.
--72 points for 2 hard dice, providing 10 gobble dice.

Now, I still know there are plenty of ways to deal with the character. But... our curiosity is up and we want to know... purely from a game mechanic standpoint, is there a reason to purchase the more expensive version?

Penalty dice can affect the roll... but if a power is permanent, you're not likely to ever roll in a scene? But sure, it's possible.

Native keeps it from being zapped or from losing dice from willpower drain.

What about levels of Penetration? Does Penetration go against the total gobble dice, or against the set rolled. If the former, the cheaper power still seems the way to go. If the latter, well, one level of penetration kills the set of the cheaper power, bye bye protection.

Is there any other mechanical reason why the cheaper power might be a Bad Idea?

John

On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Christopher Audette <stupidinternet303@gmail.com> wrote:

After tweaking the system for awhile, I discovered something that seems kind of game breaking... namely, this power:

Perfect Invulnerability 2HD (88)

Cost: 22/44/88

Defends+8: Interference +3, Endless +3, Native +1

Useful: Variable Effect +4, If/Then (Only for Variable Effect) -1, If/Then (Variable Effect only for Immunities) -1, Self Only -3, Endless +3, Native +1

This power, on top of providing the immunity to everything Invulnerability does, provides 10 in Hardened HAR for the cost of 88 points.  Obviously, this is the sort of thing that should be considered under the whole "Iron & the glass" section of the book, but I'm more worried about how cheap it makes defenses, given the Defends levels.  How should I deal with something like this?  Write all NPCs with similarly cheap versions of defends and let the players go to town, or forbid a certain amount of Defends levels?

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